The upwards pointing arrow, Cool, but can be negative Options

[sledge]

So I'm creating a 3D model of a viking ship for one of my classes and was looking for some iconography to put on it and I came across quite the read. I'm sure somebody probably already brought this up but I thought it was worthy enough to note. I've consistantly noticed how 30STM likes to use an ass load of Norse mythology, and I'm sure that's all this is. Ok here goes:

The upward pointing arrow we all see and wear on our shirts is actually the Tyr Rune, named after the Norse god Tyr, and was the name of an ancient runic symbol. Tyr was a god of warfare and battle (pretty cool and you can see how it relates). Unfortunately, the Tyr rune "was appropriated by the Nazi Party in Germany and used as a symbol for the leadership schools (Reichsführerschulen) of Hitler's brownshirts, the Sturmabteilung. Since then, neo-Nazis and white supremacists have continued to use the Tyr rune. Along with the Life rune, it is one of the more common runic symbols appropriated by white supremacists. Nonracist pagans may also use this symbol, so it should be judged only in context."

Thought that was kinda interesting. I'm sure the guys see it as the Norse symbol though, but damn, it makes ya think. If you want to see where I got my facts go here.

Sorry if this upsets anyone, but I figured you might wanna know in case somebody tries to accidentally call you a neo-nazi for wearing a 30STM arrow on a t-shirt.

[Aitana]

The same thing happens with the svastika, it's an ancient solar symbol, is not a negative symbol, you can find it almost in all continents: in sanctuaries in India, in pre-columbian cultures, ...

[Rothalion]

...and China too no? Altered though. Is Tyre also Tiwaz? I'm in the middle of moving so my research notes are buried. Tiwaz is for ....I want to say stregnth but... and no offense, thanks for the info!

[Aitana]

...and China too no? Altered though. Is Tyre also Tiwaz? I'm in the middle of moving so my research notes are buried. Tiwaz is for ....I want to say stregnth but... and no offense, thanks for the info!

Yes, in China too, and carved in the walls of Medieval churches in Spain and other European countries, ...

Iberian ceramic: Artemis surrounded by swastikas
(IMG:http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7503/artemis4ui.jpg)

(IMG:http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/4359/easterparadealicante2gy.th.jpg)

----

Tyr is the old norse name and Tiw is the anglosaxon name:

Tyr was a very important deity at one time, the similarity of his name to Dyaus/Zeus/Deus implies that Tyr began his existence as a sky god [see etymology], probably the preeminent Germanic deity. Only later did he acquire the attribute of warrior god, and as such, he became a less important deity, replaced by Odin as god of the sky. The Romans equated him with their own Mars, Tyr represented the principles of law and justice, his character was more like that of Mars (noble and brave) than like that of Ares (malevolent and coward).

Etymology

Different forms in different Germanic languages: Tiu-s, Tiw, Tý-r, Zio, make a series like the similar þiu-s, þeow (þiw), þý-r, dio. Indo-European brings a multitude of terms with these roots 'div, tiv, zio' meaning 'brightness, sky, day, god'. Of Sanskrit word 'dyaus' stands the closest to the Greek and German gods' names Zeuj, Tius.

The name for the day of the week Tuesday is derived from the name of the God Týr (gen. Týs):
- Týsdag [Týrs-Day, i.e. Teusday] in Old Norse and Tiwesdæg in Anglo-Saxon (the AS form is Tiw = Tiw's day).
- In Romance languages, the name of the day is derived from the Latin word, Mars (gen. Martis):
Mardi (in French), Martes (in Spanish), Dimarts (in Catalan), ...

[i'll attack]

reminds me of the 7 up shirt

[Anduin]

Sorry if this upsets anyone, but I figured you might wanna know in case somebody tries to accidentally call you a neo-nazi for wearing a 30STM arrow on a t-shirt.

That wouldn't even surprise me!
I've got one of the patches on my jacket but luckily no one has called me a nazi so far...
I love the arrow but I know the next time I'm gonna put my jacket on, I'll be thinking of this thread.... damn...

Anyway thanks for posting ! Now I'm prepared !

[Conor]

so that's why 30stm are so big in the South. (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Gioto]

so that's why 30stm are so big in the South.  (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

hahahahha, no one has ever really heard of them south from the south in the real deep south..... aka South Florida. I love how i ahve to go north to get to the deep south lol

[Phoenix1]

(IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)
I'LL BE CAREFUL THEN!!
but if anyone is that closed minded to think the worst, (all though its good to be informed) then screw them! really now....were in a new generation...symbols mean new different things, could mean the following too,

1) "this way to Mars"

2) "up off your ass's"

3) "up apose to down"

LMAO...any way....I'm shure that racisim was the last thing on their minds..... (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[beachbumm]

(IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) So Im guessing it isnt a good idea to wear my arrow shirt to school then (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[therenegadenail]

hahahahha, no one has ever really heard of them south from the south in the real deep south..... aka South Florida.

haha, you got that right because i live in the keys,(a lil further than miami), and no one down here evan herd of them,(more or less, i spred the word as best as i can) i think im the only Keys Echelon in the whole keys lol

[SoulSearcher]

Totally off topic - just wanted to say hi.
Had a blast meeting you guys, tonight were going to a show in Atlantic City...tomorrow Wilmington. (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sledge]

Totally off topic - just wanted to say hi.
Had a blast meeting you guys, tonight were going to a show in Atlantic City...tomorrow Wilmington.  (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hey girl! Good to hear from you and I had a blast as well! Much love to ya! (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

On another note, I believe the arrow personally is a secondary symbol for the phrase Provehito in altum. You know Launch forth into the unknown, alwys look skyward, toward Mars or something like that.

[Thirty Seconds T...]

Hey girl!  Good to hear from you and I had a blast as well!  Much love to ya!  (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

On another note, I believe the arrow personally is a secondary symbol for the phrase Provehito in altum.  You know Launch forth into the unknown, alwys look skyward, toward Mars or something like that.

Yes, I agree. I've read that somewhere.

[prozac.cat]

Yes, I agree. I've read that somewhere.

Incognito's bible-- I mean FAQ.

[Aitana]

On another note, I believe the arrow personally is a secondary symbol for the phrase Provehito in altum.  You know Launch forth into the unknown, alwys look skyward, toward Mars or something like that.

The meaning of both is related in some way:
- Provehito in altum (launch forth into the deep) means that you should be forceful in your pursuits and rise to the important challenges which lie ahead of you and urges to extend the frontiers of knowledge.
- The Tyr rune means basicly motivation and determination: represents direction and ambition, a desire for progression or advancement, especially if pointing upwards.
It denotes victory in battle, divine justice, honor, and represents martial values and attributes. It brings to the wearer strength of purpose, power of will and a drive to a higher purpose. This rune was once carved on weapons to bring victory, and even now it's considered by some to be particularly useful to anyone involved in a physical, legal, or moral conflict.

[beautifulsoul]

Here is an intersting article I found on the web written by a guy named Dean. Hopefuly this information is correct but it basically talks about symbols etc.

The Power Of Symbols
Dean
We were having a surprisingly interesting discussion here (sometimes the most mundane topics generate the most diverse conversations around here) when the subject of the swastika of all things came up. Which brought to mind the various ways that particular symbol has been used throughout history--and how much meaning humans pour into the symbols they see. For example, what would you think if someone handed you the following trinket?



(IMG:http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b50/uonlyliveonce/deanesmay-swasticross_coke.gif)




Would you think that the Coca-Cola company used to be a German company? Or that they once did business with Nazi Germany? You wouldn't be stupid to think that, but you'd be wrong. The Coke people brought that out as a watch fob trinket in 1925, years before anyone had even heard of Adolph Hitler. Oh yeah, and the Coca-Cola Company was founded in Georgia and is as American as they come.

So what was the point? The point is that for thousands--literally, thousnads--of years the swastika has been considered a good luck symbol. At one time, a swastika token was like having a rabbit's foot, or a horseshoe over your door, or a four-leaf clover. It was just considered a good luck symbol.

This 1907 postcard helps drive the point home:



(Click to see an enlarged image.)

Note how both the swastika and the horseshoe are "good luck" motifs on this postcard, as is the "lucky penny" and the heart with an arrow through it. This is a postcard that was sold in drug stores back in 1907, when Adolph Hitler was only 18 years old, a soon-to-be college dropout of no particular fame or merit. He did not rise to power until 1933, until which time, for most people in the West, this was just a good luck symbol not unlike a rabbit's foot or a four-leaf clover. In some cultures it was a religious symbol; some Christian churches have had swastikas in them for centuries, and you can even find ancient Jewish synagogues that are thousands of years old with swastikas side-by-side with stars of David. Swastikas have even been found ing cave paintings and artifacts dated more than 8,000 years old.

Funny how hard it is to look at it that way, isn't it? You almost have to force your brain to see it in anything other than negative terms. But in truth, it has been a popular symbol around the globe for thousands of years, across multiple cultures and religions and continents. Read more about it here.

In fact, here's one that'll interest you military geeks: in World War I (which ended in 1918), some of America's 45th Infantry wore the following arm patch:



That, again, was American soldiers. What did it mean? Nothing special. It was just a distinctive emblem, like a star or a saber or or a triangle. No different from the other patches military people have been wearing for generations. And remember, this was around 1918, long before anyone had ever heard from that obscure little corporal from Austria named Hitler.

We can credit Hitler with a couple of innovations in his use of the sumbol though. He actually did do something subtle to make the symbol match his regime. Know what it was? It was pretty minor:



Can you spot it yet? When you look at that it should suddenly scream "Nazi!" But why? What's different?

First, he tilted it 45 degrees. (He wasn't the first to do that, but it was a bit unusual.) Then he put it in a white circle with a burgundy background (I think you'd call that burgundy anyway).

It's hard to find a more electrifyingly negative symbol in the modern world, isn't it? Yet historically it was always considered utterly benign. It's one of the humanity's oldest symbols, and never meant anything particularly bad until Hitler.

I have absolutely no overarching point or theme I want to make out of this, except that it's just interesting the power that symbols hold on the human imagination. That and how a symbol can mean one thing in some contexts and completely, radically different things in others.

Symbols. They're powerful, aren't they?

* Update * AZ Perspective notes that the swastika had associations in Navajo myth.

[Phoenix1]

humm..exactly what I refered to earlier, minus the lesson..... (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
good to know though!
wow....
if people could be more open minded.. (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[misspsykosis]

Haha. I have a massive ass arrow on the sleeve of my homemade shirt.
DAMMNIT.
Ah, well. People realize (at least, the intelligent ones do) that the swastika symbol has been tarnished by nazis, and is originally a sign of good luck.

Fuckin' nazis.

Anyhow, interesting read.

[VampyreNocturne]

Thanks for the post sledge! I didn't know about it, but now I'll be ready with a comeback anytime someone even looks at the arrow wrong. (IMG:http://thirtysecondstomars.forumsunlimited.com/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I will never stop wearing it just because it was once used as something negative.

Symbols change according to who views them.